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While believing in "a" god or gods can possibly be argued with a small degree of logic, it's extremely illogical to believe in the specific god Yahweh - the obviously humanly flawed selfish, jealous, greedy, hateful deity of the bible whose actions and orders fit the description of any religion's main villain, much too tiny and petty to explain the beauty and vastness of this universe.

Any "all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful" god who has ordered even one human to kill another human, EVER, is a FALSE god (not to mention the hundreds of thousands of children and women yahweh has ordered exterminated, or taken as slaves... the Good god, everybody!)
EVEN just once!
Or any infinitely loving god who can allow the existence of a place like hell (without becoming so extremely disgusted with himself at even contemplating the idea that he just snaps it out of existence in the very next thought), just proves itself to be a creation based on the umrealistic needs and desires of humanity during those violent, war-torn ages.  
These are traits of a false god created by humans.  100%!!

How can you get angry when you have the power to solve every problem in the entire universe?
Just the fact that an all-knowing, all-loving god admits to feelings of "Jealousy" or even "Anger" should be the biggest trigger to, "I'm being lied to!"  To clue you in that this god was definitely created by the egos and agendas of men, specifically, unequivocally.

While we may never know what allowed the conditions for the massive expansion (or big bang), that is the only place left for a god to hide. Every other aspect originally attributed to every one of our gods has been explained by natural phenomena. There is no evidence of any supernatural influence on anything that happens in this universe from the big bang itself to now.  Again, there's a small chance a god may have been needed perhaps the moment before the big bang, but it's very small, and where did It go, and why did It decide to stop interfering with the universe?

Logically a loving god would forgive a first transgression made by the first people who didn't even know what "evil" or "disobeying" even meant. The story of Adam and Eve is no better than school children arguing over how to play, "You didn't play like i wanted you to, i hate you forever!  You're not allowed on the merry-go-round anymore!"

"Hate," as indicated by the stories in the bible itself, seems to be the only emotion god feels for us on a consistent basis.  But that's what you get for programming us wrong and then blaming us for it.  Why set up so many conditions intentionally stacked against us, most of which with no meaning or reason (targeting lust: the one thing that creates life), unless he intended to toy with us?  
Why set up such a corrupt system that, if we fail to meet these conditions, so many of us helpless humans in his care, under "His Infinite Love and Protection," are to be burnt and tortured forever with no chance of escape or even help from him, EVER, because you might have forgotten to apologize for saying "god damn" once.  
Yes, christians HAVE built a god this dim, and hateful.  

The only way out of hell is by scrapping the entire idea of being a good person.  Just claim belief in and ancient book that endorses genocide more than love.  Claim belief in the idea that an ancient god of prejudice sent a part of himself down, to sacrifice himself to himself, just so he can figure out how and why to forgive us for that one first transgression (that he set up all along) about which he's still holding that childish, playground grudge, all in the hopes that we'll kiss his feet for eternity!  
(God of Justice and Forgiveness, everybody!)

Yahweh is purely illogical, and cannot exist as he is described in the bible. Read it with the mind of a human who cares and loves his fellow people, and wouldn't want to discriminate against them for no reason.  In that frame of mind, no one can deny that a full read of the bible is the best source for all the reasons NOT to believe in Yahweh, nor his "extention/hand puppet" Jesus.  
Read it as if you never want learn how to justify genocide, homophobia, sexism, racism, murdering babies, marrying and raping the women of cities you take over, etc..  
I highly suggest reading the bible all the way through: your god orders and encourages all of these above things.
And if he can think this way even ONCE it proves he is not loving (love doesn't create hell, nor does it pit man against man), not all-knowing (if understands every reason for everything happening, and can fix all problems with a thought, then it is impossible/cruelty to get angry since you already knew what was coming, since you PROGRAMMED it all, and so it had to be part of your plan in the first place), and NOT all-powerful (an omniscient god CAN fix its problems with instant thought changes, so why choose bloody physical messes that only make things worse and more confusing coming from a god?).
If you disagree with these teachings, then you disagree with the bible.  And if you disagree with the bible, then why are you still calling yourself christian?  
Why not stand against such obvious abuse-justification in the form of ancient, invisible, intangible fear?

I get so many responses saying, "Well you're just focusing on the negative parts of religion, the negative parts of god, the bible, our cult members," but ... that's the point.  NOBODY is focusing on the negative aspects of religion and DEALING with them.  
...well, a rare few, and we atheists love that there are good christians trying to change things ... but if you disagree with god's teachings, then why do you still support him - but, i'll get to that...

Ignoring the negative aspects of god is exactly the same as promoting Adolf Hitler as a great and moral man because he was a Vegetarian, and was responsible for probably the most solid German economy in history.  Just ignore the negative holocaust stuff, that's just focusing on the negative.  
"I can call myself a nazi and not be associated with racism and the holocaust, can't i?"

"I can ignore the endless harassment, and violent reaction to homosexuals as instructed by my bible, and still support the bible and not be associated with homophobia, can't i?  
Witch burning?  Slavery?  Calling unbelievers fools?  I don't believe in any of that, but i support those who do by giving credit to this ancient hateful book!  
But I can still call myself christian without directly adding support to words of bigotry, CAN'T I?!?!?"

If YOU promote the bible to others as a Complete Package, then YOU must believe it as a Complete Package!!  Not believing it completely while promoting it as 100% truth, is YOUR own hypocrisy.  
I didn't choose to put you in your "Christian" box, YOU did.  Own it!

YOU chose to stick with this bigot god, despite all his actions, so stop backtracking when we call you out on your religion's encouragement of abuse!
Or do the rational, empathetic thing and stand against it, and you won't have to worry about being associated with christian-specific bigotry!  
It really IS that simple:  Stop supporting the bible, you stop supporting biblical abuse.

Believing in some parts of the bible and not others, and still calling yourself a Christian is the exact same as saying you're a big fan of Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace, but that you'd only ever been shown the trailer.  You've heard the bad reviews across the board, and are hesitant to see the whole movie because you know it'll just ruin the magic the trailer brought you.  
You'd just rather have "faith" (the belief in the words of other men) that it's "good".  

Believe in the idea of a god if you need to. But don't give support to slavery, homophobia, sexism, and racism by supporting the holy book of hate-crimes, the Bible.
Don't be a lazy fanboy or fangirl.  

Read it thoroughly and realize what has us atheists so thoroughly disgusted by it.
A god of love that encourages slavery and allows for eternal suffering to exist anywhere in his universe.

To see my Youtube version: [link]

Remember: Atheists aren't the ones telling you that you're going to be tortured forever if you aren't on our side.

We're trying to let you know that you'll NEVER be tortured forever, because that's so obviously impossible, that it makes itself unbelievably ridiculous.
It's an argument required for humans to convince other people to do what they're told (ie, voting against gay marriage and women's rights), using the intensified fear of something they refuse to prove, yet claim special command from.
Gotta wonder what's on the agendas of those who still fight me on the side of this kind of thinking...
And why those who also disagree with these teachings still paint themselves with these colours...
And that's our entire point.
Add a Comment:
nikkissippi121 Featured By Owner Apr 22, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
I'll be honest - I'm a Reform Jewish convert, but I don't buy into a lot of the teachings. I don't know what G-d is or isn't, but I believe there's something more. I interpret the texts not literally, but with the knowledge that they were written by people, long after the events occurred, and likely were imbued with personal opinion and ideas. I chose Reform Judaism because it just seemed like the right fit for me (and, I'll admit, I did quite a bit of praying on it and eventually felt it was the right choice). I get your point entirely, and agree heavily with what you - I would never use religion on other people or tell others what they should or shouldn't believe because I think it should be a matter of choice. I enjoy being a Jew, and I'm happy with the choice I've made. So, I dunno. But I do get your point, and I completely respect your opinion. :)
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner May 3, 2016  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I much appreciate your perspective and politeness.  I can definitely understand where you're coming from, and i wish more believers were as conscious of what they choose to believe as you are!  
Thanks for the rational comment!  
I may still disagree that the universe needs or indicates any existence of any of man's proposed gods, but i have no reason to feel threatened by your personal view, and so have no beef with it!
nikkissippi121 Featured By Owner May 6, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
Awesome! I really appreciate your open-mindedness, too. :)
sin-and-love Featured By Owner Sep 11, 2014
How is this art?
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner Edited Sep 15, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
There's a category for non-fiction philosophy, so it doesn't need to be art, as long as it's artfully crafted.  The real art in getting through to the christians and other theists is in getting the right wording that can break through years of brainwash.
This one's not my most artfully crafted, but every step is a new learning experience.
CarbonWOLF7 Featured By Owner Apr 19, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner Apr 24, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Haha, exactly.  Something had to have been alive first in order to die!  Ink is just innate.  And that's the only place god "lives."
Furbs3D Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
And of course, check too my depiction of Yahweh´s ancient wife ASHERAH:

More info about this forgotten marriage here:…
Furbs3D Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Check my Yahweh portraits! :P

Furbs3D Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I fully agree with you, LimeGreenSquid!!!


Yahweh is one of the most hateful & psychopathic deities the human mind has ever created.
Just like Richard Dawkins described Him... “.. the God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

ResponsibleAtheist Featured By Owner Jul 11, 2013
Good read. Keep up the good work.
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner Jul 11, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Thank you!
Jareksobinski Featured By Owner Apr 1, 2013
You know. Im a Christian, Roman Catholic to be accured. I go to Church every Sunday and never heard on the mass about murdering, raping, slavery, genocide, killing children for cursing their parents, abortion combined with murdering the mother (in the Hosea book), kiling those who had sex with their parents, offspring, sibling, animals, sacrificing animals etc. I found these things when I read the Bible and I was pretty mortified.
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner Apr 12, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
It is pretty shocking to read all that after being told of the god that most people are told of. Hard to put them together.
ImplicitImp Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2013  Student Traditional Artist
You're right, religion is illogical - it's really something of a stumblingblock to progress, because it carries with it notions of compunction and guilt, some artificial. But there is that comfort of something which physics or chemistry cannot prove, so it does serve some function.

Religion is there, partly mixed with philosophy and separate from science. Science doesn't talk God, and Religion doesn't talk Science. It's not meant to be logical, while science is.

And really, intolerance by Christians is forgetting what Jesus said about loving thy neighbor as thyself. That is a common error among the religious (people tend to mess up a lot), but it is not the correct way to be a Christian.
yaktheripper Featured By Owner May 24, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
oh my gosh...Lime. You simply can't win this debate. Humans, for the most part, are wired to anything. While I'm not an atheist, I'm not a follower either. Not that anyone asked, but my "belief" puts me on neutral ground.
My belief is simple. Everything came from something. I base this on observation of natural laws. It just makes sense to me. I don't subscribe to any bible, however I believe that something of intelligence beyond our comprehension created this reality. I don't believe it knows of us and if it does...I'm not sure it cares. I don't believe that we "carry on" past the shelf life of our physical and that dead is dead. I don't believe in Good or Evil.
But, the best part is...I don't know if I'm right, and I don't care! If I'm be it. If Christianity has it right then Im mega fucked. Oh well.
We outside the Christian religion recognize the gaping flaws of their religion. We read it, listen to it, discuss it and say, "now this just doesn't add up". There is no proof that they are evidence...yet they choose to believe.
This is their right. It is...their "faith".
I salute your protest of it however. Logic and reason should be celebrated and questions should be answered. Unfortunately, not one person you debate with on here will provide one answer that would hold any sort of water in a court of law. All they have is hearsay. be an atheist is just as flimsy. While they do not hold the proof of their god, you do not hold proof that something of "god like" power does not exist. On the contrary, as stated earlier it is logical to deduce that something ie reality, before or after said "big bang" exists because something caused it to exist. Something as ordinary as a paperclip does't just appear out of thin air...what would bring us to the conclusion that something as complex as reality would?
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner May 24, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
As long as humans can use the laws of a god to promote all the kinds of discrimination (such as the bible promotes), this god will have to show its face to the humans it claims to love, yet chooses to neglect or, in his own stories, abuses and demands worship from like a spoiled bully. And that is the god that is most popular and its speakers causing the most trouble where i live - the kind of god i would morally always have to fight against.

It's always the religious majority where the votes against gay rights and women's rights and non-religious people's rights come from. And that's because the bible specifically downtrods women and gays and non-believers as subhuman, and so long as people support the bible as a credible source of history (which we know it isn't, but many refuse to accept that), people will ALWAYS be able to turn to passages and say, "God says this about these people, so it's ok for me to disregard what these people actually say in real life, and instead follow a dead god's laws, obviously written by bigoted humans. Because ancient books are more important than real people."

To not believe in Yahweh, Jesus and all that has to do with the Abrahamic faiths is the most rational thing in the universe, and there is no winning that debate. He is a disgusting hateful god that does not deserve worship, no amount of cross-waving will change that.

To say no gods exist at all, while logical and pretty much the way reality shows us it works (aka: goddlessly, imperfect, completely random until molecules working together formed nervous systems and could show "intent"), no one has the answer, so an atheist arguing against a god that someone says might have started the "big bang" would be pointless, because there are no facts on either side of a wild guess. But then I could say purple unicorns started the big bang and you would have no right to tell me i'm wrong, but should I be taken seriously just because i say i believe it, using the exact same "wild guess" method as all god-believers: the self-lie known as "faith." Any feeling you get is part of your evolved senses to desperately need things that are alive around you, watching you, to make you feel like a safe little monkey when relatives die, and you no longer have certain familiar faces keeping you safe.

We project human emotion at everything because we're egotistical humans who think we're the center of the universe, and can't stand the idea of a universe without some sort of personality with a boner for humanity.

Faith is never a good way to approach anything - it is literally allowing people to convince you of something and giving them a free pass to hide what they're talking about from you: something built specifically to manipulate people into following agendas without question because a closed-minded faithful believer is going to accept all they're taught by the first person who closes their questioning mind by bringing them "faith", and denyinh any and all arguments against the agenda, without question, even when the evidence is clearly against it. Faith is always a form of lying, no matter how you cut it.

And faith will never be enough for me to vote against homosexuals or women, or groups of people at all. Faith is not a big enough excuse for bigotry, yet people use it as the biggest shield, because the bible provides hundreds of passages that support the absolute WORST in humanity. And if christians can call themselves "true christians" while picking and choosing the laws of their god based on whether they like or dislike them, then how does that make them christians?

But if you're not promoting that god, then i have no beef with your belief. If your god does not support the bigotry and genocide encouraged and ordered several times by the god the christians worship (and many other gods man has come up with), then i have no problem with your god, other than the fact that nothing in this universe indicates anything supernatural, and that wild guesses are useless. Just please don't defend the christian god, and give your god a different name so we don't associate you with the bigotries associated with the bible.

Atheists are here to call religious bullshit: Christians want us to treat other people horribly because their god tells me to? Show us their god, and let him tell me, and ONLY then will i realize he's real, and then i would still have to fight against him, because treating anybody differently for the way they were born, when they are not causing any harm, is not something anybody should EVER stand for. Bullying is NEVER a positive human trait.

Only science can approach the universe with any sort of honesty, as science does not allow itself to make wild guesses. Anything science claims as true has to go through brutal scrutiny, why? Because we'd rather be honest instead of burying our heads in the wild guesses of an ancient book of proven-false history that refuses to improve upon its belief structure. We'd rather be honest than to prematurely conclude that any gods exist when there's no indication of supernatural influence in this universe.

And if everything came from something, your god had to come from something, too. He could be a programmer for a matrixy program, or it could be a bomb-shaped god that started the big bang, or whatever (wild guesses never get anywhere in these debates, that's why science has to be called to decipher reality from wishful thinking)

If you claim that your god doesn't have a creator, then you are saying something CAN come from nothing, and so i can also claim, with as much evidence as you, that the particles of this universe (the very stardust that composes all matter, including ourselves) always existed, making your claim null and void.

A paper clip was made with a mind that knows how to manipulate tools. Before animals, there were likely no other minds in the entire universe. The mind is the universe's way of being able to "edit" itself, without just relying on the "laws" of physics ("laws" only in the sense that humans can relate to them, not actual cosmically written rules), which rely on unguided, chance meetings of molecules and other physical matter. Without intention the universe has spawned beings that DO have intent, and can manipulate the molecules of the universe with memory and purpose, rather than chance. That's what makes life amazing to me.
Molecules randomly attaching to other molecules, chemical reactions randomly meeting and creating motion, then more and more molecules attach and soon resource gathering for building becomes feeding and reproducing - and that's life from non-life.
We are the universe finally able to observe and influence itself.

It's absolutely amazing how unlikely we are, but nothing about the process of life indicates any supernatural influence. It can all be traced to completely natural circumstances under the laws of physics that our universe, as we know it, works within. Whether these "laws" are absolutely universal, or change depending on what "multiverse" you're in, or whenever the universe contracts again into a tiny singularity before it builds the pressure to "big bang" again (which IS a behaviour observed in some cosmic phenomena, so it's likely, but...) it's still all calculated guessing, and science will not claim one thing or another to be true if all it has is a guess, whether wild, or calculated. Anybody claiming to know what happened before the big bang is either being dishonest or are ignorant sheep echoing what the dishonest have told them. But everything that did happen once the big bang occurred can be observed and traced back, because we, the universe, can finally see and understand ourselves in ways we never could when we evolved to have belief in the supernatural, and then artificially selected by religious tyrants who'd kill all people who DON'T have a natural inclination to "just believe".

And in all honesty my belief puts me on neutral ground, too, and i recognize and understand that, because i can't know if a god exists or not until one shows itself to me. Same again can be said about purple unicorns, and that doesn't make either claim any more worthwhile to argue for.
I do know the christian god doesn't exist, because it's too humanly flawed, filled with too much primitive human hatred, and if christians weren't instructed by their god to be the most obnoxious pushers of their addiction, with a side of discrimination, i would not be arguing against the idea of gods so much.

But they are forcing our hands. This never really was about religion, but human rights. If people are fighting to take human rights away from other people, using a god as an excuse, THAT'S when atheism becomes important. That's when we all have to stand together against faith, because faith is the poison that con-men sell their flock so that their flock unquestioningly obeys, and votes for what god wants instead of being encouraged to THINK about what real people are going through. Faith is the silencer of questions, and is used most often as the true enemy of the open mind.

Keep an open mind, just don't let your brain spill out, and don't treat others bad or god based solely on wild guesses (aka faith), is all we atheists really want to say.
sin-and-love Featured By Owner Edited Sep 12, 2014
    When people say that the Bible isn't a credible source of history, it just shows a profound level of ignorance on their part.  There's literally mountains of evidence in verification of the bible, like an Egyptian pillar with inscriptions describing Moses' parting of the reed* sea and drowning pharaohs armies, or the remnants of those armies discovered in what was called the reed sea at the time.  And if you want something proving Jesus' existence, read "The Case For Christ" a book by Lee Strobel, the former editor of the New York Times.

If you want solutions to the "gaping flaws" of Christianity, then read the books by Jurgen Moltman, Molly Marshall, and C. S. Lewis, whose mind-- I am convinced-- was touched by God.

*reed sea, not red sea. There was a mistranslation.
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner Sep 14, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Egypt has no record of the hebrews, nor their exodus, and they were extensive record takers.
CS Lewis's arguments fall just as flat as every other excuse-maker.
sin-and-love Featured By Owner Edited Sep 16, 2014
Oh, really?………

And have you ever actually READ a C. S. Lewis book?

"The Naturalists [(atheists)] have been engaged in thinking about nature. They have not attended to the fact that they were THINKING. The moment one attends to this it is obvious that one's own thinking cannot be merely a natural event, and that therefore something other than nature exists. The supernatural is not remote and abstruse: it is a matter of daily and hourly experience, as intimate as breathing."--Miracles, chapter 6

"The various and complex conditions under which reason and morality appear are the twists and turns of the frontier between nature and Supernature. This is why, if you wish, you can always ignore supernature and treat the phenomena purely from  the Natural side; just as a man studying on a map the boundaries of Cornwall and Devonshire can always say, 'what you call a bulge in Devonshire is really a dent in Cornwall.' and in a sense you can't refute him. What we call a bulge in Devonshire always IS a dent in Cornwall. What we call rational thought in a [human] always involves a state of the brain, in the long run a relation of atoms. But Devonshire is none the less something more than 'where Cornwall ends,' and reason is something more than cerebral bio-chemistry." -- ibid, chapter 6

"The theory that thought is merely a movement in the brain is, in my opinion, nonsense; for if so, that theory itself would be merely a movement, an event among atoms, which may have speed and direction but of which it would be meaningless to use the words 'true' or 'false'." --Transportation and Other Addresses, chapter 1

How in the world are these arguments no better than, say ,"God exists because the bible says so."or "God's existence is proven because God is supposed to be perfect and a good thing that does exist is better  than a good thing that doesn't exist so in order for God to be perfect he would have to exist so THERE." (Yes, a historic philosopher called "Saint Anslem" actually said that and wasn't joking)

By the way,I took these quotes from an anthology of his best points called "A Mind Awake". If you read the context of its quotes in the books they come from, then they're even MORE compelling!   

Here's an argument I came up with myself, But Lewis probably said something similar at one point: The reason that there's no scientific evidence for God is that God INVENTED science. Looking for evidence of God in the Universe's blueprint that we call science is like looking for evidence of Bill Gates in the code of Microsoft Office(TM). You might counter me by saying "Well, Microsoft Office(TM) doesn't contain sentient life that Gates might have to prove his existence to." but if God actually DID play your silly game and 'prove his existence by writing a message in the clouds' or something, don't you think it would be dismissed as just one of those little freaky coincidences? example: I was reading a "Ripley's 'believe it or not!'" book once and came across a picture of an alligator with yellow scales on its side that spelled out "GOD" in all caps. At the time I just thought "whoa. that's weird." but looking back, it seems to me that God decided to create something and literally stamp "made by God" on it to show how 'writing a message in the clouds' wouldn't prove his existence at all!  
sin-and-love Featured By Owner Edited Sep 16, 2014
Another thing. I've just looked at your other stuff, and I want to clear some tings up with you. First, Not all religious people are bigots who refuse to let any new information past their neutron-star-density skulls and who cling to their own ideas and get angry when people disagree with them. THOSE religious people are called "fundamentalists," and they are to us sensible theists as the Nazis are to modern Germans: they give us a bad name and we are ashamed to have something to do with them. The ones on T.V. with the "God hates f*gs" signs are the "Westboro Baptist church" they're not a denomination, but a single Baptist congregation and minister from Topeka, Kansas. They're the ONLY Christians to claim that God hates ANYONE. Even other fundamentalists will finish their bigoted rant with "...but remember, we need to try to forgive gays/feminists/black people/jews. 'Hate the sin, love the sinner.'" We non-fundamentalist Christians try to interpret the Bible so that it only looks idiotic on the surface. We try to think of explanations for the seemingly bigoted or hypocritical parts, and a lot of these really work! For example, In the creation account (which is almost certainly a parable),the reason God told Adam and Eve to avoid the tree of knowledge of good and evil when it would have been simpler to never have created the plant in the first place is that in order for them to truly be good, they had to have the free will to choose between good and evil, and then choose good (a world of automaton that only move when God pulls the strings would hardly be worth creating, no?), and in order for that to happen God had to leave open the possibility that they might choose evil. THAT was the original sin. Not sex, but disobedience. You might also ask why, if he loves us so much, God didn't simply remove by divine miracle the negative consequences of the first sin? The answer is that He would have had to be prepared to do so not just the first sin, but also the second sin and the third sin and the fourth sin and the fifth sin, and so forth. Why does Leviticus tell us to execute gays? because the Hebrews were living in the barren desert and needed to keep a breeding population. It was a merciful death and a tragic necessity. Why does Paul tell women to be silent in the temple and not ask questions? Because before then Women weren't even allowed in the temple at all! Most of them were temple prostitutes (yes, you read that correctly. It was a fertility thing) in pagan temples and would thus be confused by the completely different theology of Christianity. Today women and men both should ask any questions they have, but after the sermon, of course. You can look for the solutions to other problematic passages by reading books by people like the ones I mentioned earlier.

Also, I'd like to provide another tidbit that suggests that God exists.  I made up a little something to add onto Your "A Spiritual Conversation" (a deleted scene, if you will). It shows how that conversation couldn't have happened:

"Hey, I've got an idea!" 

"Ugh. What is it, saint anslem?"

"Why don't we say that there's a guy whose the son of God, but also IS God?"

"...Why would we--"

"Oh! and what if there's a third guy?  We could say that God's a single person, but also THREE peole at the same time! God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit! We'll call it the trinity!" 

"That's the craziest idea I've ever heard! Who on earth would believe that? Were trying to get people to think God ISN'T made up, remember?"
yaktheripper Featured By Owner May 24, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
Human right? I'm all for it. There would be but one law under my leadership and that would quite simply be never harm another thing. Do what you wish with your body, do whatever drugs you want to do, sleep, love, worship what you wish but once someone gets hurt through your negligence...your done.
I fully support the rights for homosexual or transgender people to marry. I have zero problems with it. I agree that the religious right has blockaded their right to live their dreams and interfered with their pursuit of happiness.
I don't agree, if that's what your saying, that ALL Christians are the problem. There are such things as "salad bar" Christians, Muslims, and Jews that take from their religion what they agree with and leave the rest behind. It's of nobodies right to ridicule them for their decision to practice their own personal form of worship as long as it doesn't interfere with any other human beings right to the pursuit of happiness.
Not everyone is where your at spiritually nor philosophically. Religion is a form of brainwash. Most of us are taught from the first step "all praise to God". Most people believe in a God. It's not an ego thing, it's a majority versus minority phenomenon.
Everybody else thinks it's must be.
Do we always have to see the fire? If there's smoke billowing out of a chimney, we can deduce that there is a fire in the fireplace. This might not be the case however. There could be someone with a smoke machine at the bottom of that chimney.
Science is the key to us unraveling creation. However, if you believe our science is at any sort of stage to truly unravel the mysteries of the universe...your placing way to much faith in science. We are still trying to figure out many theories. There's much debate to elements of the big bang and the equations behind it.
Also...let's stay away from the term supernatural. I don't believe in the supernatural and neither do you. So let's not insult one another. I do however recognize that as stated before science has yet to catch up with reality. The things that will be discovered over the next 100 years WILL change our understanding of things we thought we had figured out. We're still relatively new to science. And when we factor in 5 or more other dimensions existing beyond our senses, the ability to comprehend reality becomes that much more of a brain bender.
It's quite possible we don't have the intelligence to understand what this reality really is.
I understand that whatever, "god", I feel created everything has a creator, has a creator, has a creator ad infinitum. Do I understand that? Nope. Perfectly cool with not understanding it. Spent too many years anguishing over the paradox.
I must disagree with your statement "To say no gods exist at all, while logical and pretty much the way reality shows us it works (aka: goddlessly, imperfect, completely random" is a terrible lapse in logic. What about the planet Earth has shown you random acts of creation. Not one "simple" cloud in the sky "spawns" randomly. There is cause and effect and that is life. A child is not born imperfect nor randomly. It is a perfect result of the chemical chain reactions that created it through the result of a sperm entering an egg. The sperm doesn't just appear and hit the egg. Why would the Big Bang just happen? There was a cause and whatever caused it had a cause, had a cause, had a cause. The question is what is the cause?
If we are going to go the route of the big bang, it is only human and intellectual to hypothesize the reason yes? Questions are what lead to discovery. We must question and we must not toss out a possability that their was some sort of sentient figure-head. Even if it is of sentience we cannot understand.
I also found your use of the term "spawn" to be interesting. If the universe "spawned" us then we are products of an organic universe, which is fine by me. Perhaps the universe is organic and if that's the case the universe could be sentient and thus could be something with tremendous "god-like" ability. I understand the term god makes you fidgety. I really do. It used to turn me off as well. Whenever the term God came up, I was ready to be on the defensive. I am however using the term god to describe something or someone so powerful as to set reality in to motion. I am not saying it performs feats that transcend science. I am saying it's science could be so powerful as to be labeled magic to someone as primitive as us.
Faith is If it is a lie that one tells there self to continue living, let that person have their faith, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I have heard it described as a feeling. Who am I to call another human beings feelings a lie? Perhaps they do have a channel to something that doesn't channel to me.
Try as you might, ironically you cannot stand on neutral ground because you are strong in your faith. That faith is atheism. An atheist believes there is no god. No matter what the name of that god. You stand firm in that school of thought with that label. Escape the label man! You'll be really on your own then. The atheists will disagree with you...the faithful will disagree with you, but it makes perfect sense to simply see that life teaches us that life nor clouds nor planets just..came to be. Cause and effect. All day every day.
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner May 25, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
It's not to ridicule the "salad bar" believers, but to show them that their support of proven wrong stories GIVES support to those who choose to take from the bible the evil parts. The fact that they still give the bible credibility when they know their god has supported slavery and genocide and bigotry of all kinds, gives the people who take THOSE lessons power by giving the book and its stories credit in today's world.

THAT is what we are trying to show them - if they are picking and choosing what they like from their book, what makes them a part of the religion in the first place, if the religion's rules are to follow it all? If they aren't even following their own religion, by their own admission, then why are they still putting support into it, KNOWING it gives power to every christians who also claims "GOD HATES FAGS" because god has said so in the same bible the "good" christians also give credit to?

How does anybody NOT see something MAJORLY wrong with that? Especially when people are teaching children, before they have the ability to reason properly for themselves, to NEVER QUESTION THIS BOOK.

That is our point. Why would christians choose to be associated with bigotry? It is equivalent to saying they are nazis only because they agree with Hitler's stance on vegetarianism. If you HAVE to ignore huge lessons on bigotry in order to support a few rules from the religion that all religions already had before chrisianity or judaism even existed, then why still believe in it?

It's not about ridiculing christians, it's about opening their fucking eyes to the fact that they are being lead by a con. It's about helping people, about showing them there is no reason to create divisions between people based on religion. And religion is an active problem that needs to be solved. Organized public religion, that is. Personal religion, though i personally find silly and pointless, is harmless. Big religion is NOT harmless. And it is irresponsible of anyone to ignore that.
yaktheripper Featured By Owner May 25, 2012  Student Traditional Artist
There is such anger in your tone. There cannot be clear thinking with this sort of anger my friend. I understand everything your saying. I agree with much of what you have to say. However there is nothing you can do to reverse the minds of those that have "faith", trust me. There isn't a high percentage on conversion via argument.
When I was younger I was very angry at Christianity also. I just couldn't understand how and why so many people actually believed this concept of creation. It makes no sense when put to the test. So I argued and I argued, but never once did I walk away converting anyone to the side of logic. I left many a debate with the person speechless except for that one word they stand by..."faith".
And I envied them sometimes that they had that. I really did. The grass is always greener on the other side. But one thing that drugs did to for me is bring me peace about religion. I was higher then I've ever high I thought I was actually going to die. When I recovered, I quit drugs and suddenly had peace with it. I no longer cared who was right nor what the truth might actually be. Everything boiled down to a concession. Something unspeakable probably did create all of this, wasn't something that desired worship nor needed us in anyway.
Salad bar Christianity is equivilant to our acceptance of many things in history that we pick and choose to focus on, while negating other aspects of events. Examples being Christoper Columbus "exploring" America, regardless that the Native Americans were here first and he was a vicious slave trader. The founding of America is another. We focus on the constitution and bill of rights but overlook that anyone beside white men had these privlages for some time. We still appreciate the constitution. We honor it's beauty but we sort of forget about all the bullshit behind it.
Same can be said for what we could call progressive Christians. They honor the tradition of going to church, perhaps for the social connection, the team concept, and the chance to give thanks at least to something for all they have. They perhaps look at the bible and choose stories that have moral relevance to meditate on. There are MANY good stories to reflect on in terms of doing the right thing and overcoming various challenges we humans ALL share.
I see no harm in this. I see no hate mongering. Are there terribly racist, homophobic, and ignorant followers of Christianity? Of course, but the same can be said for Atheists and agnostics. Bad people are of all color, creed, sex, political party, and religion.
It is quite extraordinary for me to actually be writing this as I too am an opponent of the learning the Bible for historic accuracy. In many of my cartoons I have been very very hard on the religion. Bible Fiction is one such cartoon I wrote about the utter stupidity behind the Garden of Eden fable. I have drawn God as a masturbating voyeur in another comic. I had one of my characters throwing darts at Jesus Christ's wounds in his hand. So I do have many problems with the religion.
But not MOST of the followers. I defend the right for them to worship their religion with every ounce of my being. They should never ever be bullied nor condemned for their right to worship.
I don't believe most Christians go into this with much of a choice. As stated earlier it is taught from birth and programmed in so to speak. So parents just accept this, live their life, and pass it to their children. It is a sort of philosophical virus. There is now way around it. You won't open anyone's eyes with logic when the person your talking to knows it might be illogical but won't yeild due to "faith". Faith is a brilliant anti-body to logic and there isn't a known counter agent yet. There faith is invulnerable. There is no way around it and there's no point in fighting it. You will always lose. Trust me.
I continue to salute your acknowledgment of the absurd but the battle you fight is one that the upcoming centuries will be to won. Only the unraveling of the universe through science and education combined with the tools of critical thinking will overcome religion.
Showzilla Featured By Owner May 2, 2012
hmmm, you seem to have run into the "christian" group that gives us a bad name.
If you need a little bit of a reason to give us another chance, maybe a little bit of info here can help, I might be wrong in these tidbits, but for the most part I should be able to help.
first, the whole condemning gays thing, from what I've heard, that was propaganda thrown in by king james when he had the bible translated.
second, many of the things that do implicate God as an evil entity where either translation errors or ,as above, shit the translators threw in because they where HUMAN: flawed, petty, and sometime hateful. also, many of those laws were written by humans and were mostly metaphorical(more on that later).
third, christians(and anyone in general) don't (or at least shouldn't) take the old testament literally, Jesus taught in metaphors and stories, so if the fleshy avatar of God teaches in this method, why wouldn't he be doing so through out the OT.
fourth: what I believe: God, the omnipotent, omniscience, and omnibenevolent creator, could give two shits about what you worship or even if you worship. being a christian is action, not words, you worship God by trying your best to be a righteous person ( I say trying your best because not everyone has the same situations to deal with and God knows that we are flawed creatures). I also believe in the middle ground of purgatory and that hell is escapable. no one goes straight to heaven, that is impossible for any creature short of God (even angels fall into this category, though I guess knowing the divine exist as a fact helps keep them on the straight and not-quite-so-narrow), but the good people spend a time in purgatory that spans the blink of an eye. Hell is pretty much just purgatory for people who did so much evil that a simple time out wont teach them what they've done, so they have to earn their redemption, but I also believe that many have accomplished it (I also believe that lucifer and his ilk could get out if they figured it out).
time to wrap this up, given your statements above and reaction to any believer of an abrahamic faith based on your assumed past expierences, you might disregard everything I just said, but lets got the old scare tactic of would you rather believe and no God exist or not believe and God exist, if you shared my believes, it wouldn't matter so long as you were a good person....and yes, my believes and interpretation are based on biblical passages, but it's too fucking early in the morning for me to quote..
so before you say anything next, just think, not all of my fellows are as pig headed as the asses you've put up with. christians are a group, and like every group in humanity, we have trouble keeping our jackasses in line.
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner May 2, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
My point is, that if even you understand the bible to be an imperfect document, one that contains lessons of discrimination, (no matter who added them or when, it has ALWAYS been man writing for god) then why do you still support its stories?
These hateful passages are still in the bible until you guys, as a whole, delete them completely.
This book actively and openly insults gays by saying they don't deserve life, and actively insults women by saying they should never take authority over men, and actively insults people who do not believe in these stories by calling them "fools" (for not being fooled), as well as endorsing slavery and baby murder - why do you still promote this book and its teachings when you know most of the teachings are wrong? How can you stand by a book that open insults and attacks living people based on nothing other than the bigotry of a god of "love"?

If you can erase all the parts from the bible that promote any kind of discrimination and use a new one, then we'll have no problems. But as long as you put support into the bible that exists how it is, how it can be read today by any common person, you are openly declaring that you support the idea of making others your enemy.
Because the bible instructs its followers to, and whether you follow those parts or not, you are still supporting them.
And if you don't follow all the laws in a book that is said to be the only conduit to your god because you realize these laws were made to discriminate, why do you still choose to stand by this book and its characters? Especially when it's not even historically true? And there have been way better spiritual role models since and before Yahweh and Jesus were even invented.

And how does one determine what is metaphorical and what is literal? Laws given by god himself can only be literal, or else the entire bible is useless even to you. You've already told me the bible is useless to you because people add things to it (if that doesn't render it as a source of information to you, then i have to wonder about your honesty).
If the foundations the the religion are based on the dishonesty and cruelty written in this bible, then what makes any of the rest worth paying attention to? Again, especially since religions that existed before the Hebrews also contained laws against killing and stealing. Hell, even many animals know it without needing to be taught any rules. It's like ignoring that an organ transplant came from an AIDS-infested drug-dealer, "I'll take the organ anyway, because organs are good, it doesn't matter what the rest of the body looks like!"

It's the passages that justify and encourage cruelty that encourage people to become the "bad" kind of christian (who would just call YOU the "bad" kind of christian, because what they do is supported 100% by the bible's teachings, too - you can't separate yourself from poeple who support the same book just by saying you like some chapters better than others when the religion depends on the book's divinity - you either take it all, or you choose hypocrisy). God said it, and christians are told not to question it. And people are still teaching this book to CHILDREN as an unquestionable word of god! How does that not stab you in the gut with disgust?

Throw away the bible, Yahweh and Jesus, and make up your own god.
You've done that already ("if you shared my believes, it wouldn't matter so long as you were a good person"), only you still hold onto the names, which are ALWAYS going to be associated with stories that say slavery is good, gays deserve death, killing other races and people of other religions is encouraged, that you must hate your mother and father to follow Jesus, that hell involves torture, or is a pile of burning garbage at the edge of town, or is purgatory, or is separation from god, or is a place of fire and brimstone where devils put shit on your face, etc. A law book that contains these laws without changing them -AT ANY POINT in its narrative- is OBSOLETE. It should never be taught to anybody as being true, but more as a psychological study of mankind through a few thousand years of history.
And since this book is the ONLY "evidence" of the god specifically named Yahweh, and this book as been proven historically false, (it's not even a true account of history, so it's not a true account of ANY god) then why would i ever support the god or demi-god depicted in its pages? A god that has ever done or said the things that This god of This bible has done or said is a god i will never believe, and if it turns out to be real, i will openly stand against it, based on its personality as shown in its only source book.
I would feel disgusted with myself to ally myself with any character who acted the way this god, from the stories in this bible, has acted.

So, some bible passages support the things you say: that's what the writers were hoping for - to slide in a few good messages among the discrimination and hive-mentality to make it seem like you're supporting a good thing - like wearing t-shirts of Hitler's face with the words "Vegetarianism is Great" under it - choosing to ignore the parts of the story you simply don't like.
Are you allowed to tell your god he's wrong when you disagree with his laws? Or is the idea that "people must have added that" to a book people wrote in the first place, a satisfying excuse?

The bible is written to support the good and evil nature of humans, for every passage that supports what you say, there are dozens of other passages that encourage the opposite ("don't kill anyone, but conquer and kill every male and take the virgins as sex slaves" - god, "sin, and go to hell, but Jesus is here, so you're sins are eliminated as long as you believe that i sacrificed myself to myself" - god).

How can you be satisfied with a religion that claims to make you a better person, but forces you to pick and choose which rules are worth following (just like real life, on your own) because once you read the book honestly you have to recognize the majority of the rules listed in this book - old and new testament - are recognizably evil, discriminatory, nonsensical ("dead bird's blood and bull semen can cure leprosy" - god) and just not worth your time?

You're not recognizably evil as far as i can tell, and you seem to be one of the "good ones", so why would you choose to ally yourself with something that is recognizably, and demonstrably evil?

Why not just worship Gandalf? He's much more worthy of praise as a literary character than Yahweh, and he's just as "real".
Why continue to defend an evil, fictional tyrant if you're not required to?

And when you are told to blame bad actions things on a devil, you take the focus away from who really caused the evil deed: the humans involved. The devil was invented to provide an excuse as to why supposedly "pious" individuals, like priests (specifically), also commit acts of evil even when they are supposed to be men of god you can trust.
If that is not clear to you, just step back and take a look at your religion as a whole. Be warned, it's an ugly sight...

So again, my request is this: if you absolutely can't see any way of losing belief in a god, then believe in a good one at least! Reject the clearly evil Yahweh, and since Jesus speaks for the evil Yahweh, you have to reject him, too - or else you are still putting your support and credibility into a book that still says to this day to kill gays, to keep slaves, to rule over women, and to commit genocide in Yahweh's name, and you are giving power to all the people who follow these laws as well.
Showzilla Featured By Owner May 2, 2012
the problem is that you seem to be only using the king james bible, which in the legitimate christian community,most of the evil is due to twisted translations. even with those translations, God saves more people than he has condemned to death...I'll get to more on it later, but I've got to go
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner May 3, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
All forms of the bible i've read all share the same stories i oppose strongest. I personally own "The Living Bible: Red Letter Edition" which includes asterisk tags at the bottom of each page (sometimes several paragraphs long themselves) explaining the original words and their original meanings for each verse that has any misinterpretation issues.

Yahweh is directly responsible for the deaths of several hundred thousand in the bible itself, and that doesn't even count the flood.
In fact, he's the one responsible for putting us in DANGER of death that we need to be SAVED from in the first place, like a fisherman telling the worm on the hook that it was "saved" because the fish didn't bite this time.
And he only forced that danger on us because of an immature temper tantrum when the first two people he designed disobeyed a non-life-threatening rule before they were given the understanding of what "disobedience" even meant, a justice comparable to beating a blind person for not knowing what colour the sky is.

If he's the one that allows hell to exist, or just evil if you don't believe in hell, he's not "saving" anyone, but keeping them in danger.
In other words: he's playing with us.
(were he not a fictional character)
Saving us would be eliminating hell and Satan and pain and suffering altogether, allowing us all to explore the vast beauties of the universe, share the pleasures of each others' bodies and minds without the negativity of violent or hateful thoughts which are only beneficial to a species who needs to fight to survive.
Keeping evil in the universe just for "free will's" sake, when he has the power to wink it out of existence, is equivalent to toying with us, and there's no other interpretation that can be concluded from that. Any further arguments only sound like a beaten wife telling people the bruises were her fault, and that she should know not to break his rules, and that today's "lesson" was that he hates being called "Honey".

I could never respect a god with a personality like that. Once you remove all the passages that display god as being that kind of villainous character, as well as the discrimination portions (which were all included before the king james version, in original hebrew, no less, Lev. 20:13), then i will have no reason to oppose your religion besides just my basic, "I am against the teaching of known lies, of any kind, to children as if they were true," stance on all religion and science and everything in general.
Showzilla Featured By Owner May 3, 2012
hmmm, let me see if I can difuse this. the first problem you have (aside from the discrimination and murder) is God's allowance of evil and hell. To explain both of those to you should help to give you a small , and I do mean small, bit of common ground with God; put yourself before the very concept of time has come into being, you are all by yourself,but you are all-powerful, so you decide for some odd reason to just start doing things. As you do this, that and everything else, you begin to notice the fact that what is point of the vast and grand universe if you have no one to share it with, if we are created in God's image (metaphorically, I'm not a creationist in any sense), this helps to explain why we all snap with out someone around us(aside from the obvious evolutionary factors), but that's a metaphysical thing, the whole point is that God, like your or me, wants love, but love is something that can't simply be forced, it's a choice that must be made, hence why we have free will. So, to continue referencing your above marriage comparison, if God were to force this love out of us, is it really love?
but this love thing isn't a one way street, he loves us, no matter our choices, even if we choice to deny him, he loves us and respects our choice.This is where hell comes into being, it is where those that choose to not be with God can be, for isn't it worse than hell to spend the rest of eternity in the presence of one you hate. As for the whole pain and stuff you were talking about, how could any part of life be joyful without anything to measure it against, no pain=no pleasure. On another note, as myself and several of my contemporaries have started to see, the inconsistency of God's orders (mostly throughout the old testament) could be seen as this: different authors writing the word of God. God gave them the word, but let them do as they wish with editing process, respecting free will, and we both know that humans can be extreme assholes if they feel the need to. As for the final comment on God being evil, there is certain point to make on things, you say he could simply wink all of pain and suffering out of existence , thus denying us free will, but he could also make things alot worse....
On to satan, God destroying him is like you killing your own son, tell me if you think that is an easy thing to do. if you can say it is easy, then we have nothing more to discuss.
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner May 3, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Every plant, animal, and human, as well as angel and devil, must also then be equivalent to "god's children" - can you answer for me why he chooses the easier, angrier, more immature responses like flooding the entire earth, murdering man, woman, child, infant, all innocent animals and plantlife, for a problem he could have snapped-fixed without intentionally forcing a suffering death on everyone but one drunkard and his family? Or how he could order his own children to kill and rape more of his own children, and yet have so difficult a time destroying one evil demon who god allows to have more power (an an entire realm) than humans can defend themselves against? If you can't answer that one without making up more stories, or using the bible, then we have nothing more to discuss.

You CAN have love and goodness un-forced in a universe that has no evil - i've tjhought of it, so in essence, your god must have thought of it, too. The fact that he has thought of a better universe without suffering, because i have, means again, that he is just playing with us. He has all the power, everything that happens in this universe under his watch is HIS fault, not the fault of ANYthing he created, because HE created it. He himself admits that he is the "author of all evil in the universe."

And you're just making up more stories on top of the already incorrect stories in the bible to try to dazzle me around the logical conclusions that a god with the properties of the character named Yahweh, as described in his only source-book the Bible, is an unquestionably false god, and if not false, determinably evil.

You can't have a god of love and have evil exist in the same universe - unless this god of love is less powerful than the evil that exists in the universe. A god of love would feel exceptionally guilty of any harm that comes to his creations, and would not know how to be jealous.
It's either one or the other, you have to choose, or you are admitting to hypocrisy.
Showzilla Featured By Owner May 4, 2012
and if his rendition in the bible is your main problem, accept that humans wrote it, not God, so it is quite easy to separate him from the "good-book". the laws in the old testament were meant for survival and mostly metaphorical, the new testament , at least by my interpretation, is the errata of the old testament. to sum it up, you have to choice hell, it's possible to a righteous person to go there because they don't believe they deserve heaven and refuse the entrance, people influenced by such old laws could easily make such a choice. The martyr of jesus, the son, was sort of a way for God to make people believe that the laws of old weren't meant to be taken seriously( but the people in charge of those laws and the community stood to lose alot if said rules were revoked). In other words, Jesus was , in a very modern sense, the errata to the jumbled up 3.5 that the OT was, but the rule-lawyering people of the time got pissy about their kick ass builds no longer mattering. How do I come to this? well, if the son portion teaches through metaphor, why then can't the father? the OT can, under this light, be taken as a perversion of God's original intent. The writers didn't necessarily hear the word of God, but what they either wanted to believe was the word of God, or misinterpreted as the word of God. Consider the Bible like one of those pamplets for a political cause, one that seems to make the people fighting for said cause look like they were made out of straw, you could label God's message simply being spread by the people who should probably keep the fucking mouths shut(my mother, the guy who lives two blocks over, damn near every televangelist, ect.).
AS for him not revealing himself to us directly, people tend to act like themselves when they believe no body is watching, if every one knew without a shadow of a doubt that God is real, no one would act as they do. Everyone would live in waking fear of being smote by a creator who has no inclination to such a thing. to quote a certain show:When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all. It's a fine line between maintain faith (because alot of people need some inkling that the overall plan of the universe has a happy ending) and negating lethargy( because that happy ending is so much more appreciated when you work for it: kinda of like the car you saved up all summer for). It may not be easy living in the universe and not having God save us from each and everything, but it's a whole hell of a lot harder being God.
Also, hell is a self-made torture, based on ones believes, personality and what not, it's a prison custom made by the prisoner, but the door is always unlocked, you've just gotta actually try and open it.
now to put an end to this, you seem like a nice person, I enjoy the banter we have, maybe if we had met under different circumstances, we could(and still can) be friends. good day to you.
Showzilla Featured By Owner May 3, 2012
also, I must comment on your titling, God is illogical. I might as well point out the HP Lovecraft answer: to him, we are illogical. If you consider for a moment, just say I'm right and he is real for a moment, how would you think if the things you made just so could love and be loved back cause their own misfortunes and pain over and over, yet the answer was right there in front of them and yet they couldn't see it. Yes, you could help them, but then they wouldn't learn, and you'd have to constantly tell them what to do. you could force them, but then that defeats their purpose. The messages he's taught us is the best he can do.
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner May 4, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
And to have god consider us illogical would imply that there was something about us humans that god didn't know about when he was building us. Some mystery that eluded the all-knowing god? No, if he created us we are exactly how we are because he made us that way. He's the one who gave us all these cravings and then tells us not to use them.

Toying with us. Period.
Showzilla Featured By Owner May 4, 2012
sorry bout the delay, finals and all, but yeah. God gave us free will....irony, I'm using an anti-bible thumper agruement on someone with a's a will limit he puts on himself, so the reason we are illogical to the all-knowing is because, to him, the right answer is C, the context clues say so, the math adds up, the equations balance out, the tangent lines flow normally, but for some reason, we don't push C.....and I God understands and forgives us.
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner May 3, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Letting people know of your existence to save them from eternal torture would be my first priority as a god of love and creation. Letting us know of his existence DOES NOT eliminate our free will. If he exists, he would let it be known, and if he wants us to follow rules, he WOULD constantly come back to tell us, just to make sure all the new people being born in ever new generation get to hear his message. He's god, that will NEVER tire him out, would it?
And how can a creature he designed exactly to behave exactly how he designed them, consider us illogical? The story you tried to convey, "the answer was right there in front of them and yet they couldn't see it. Yes, you could help them, but then they wouldn't learn, and you'd have to constantly tell them what to do. you could force them, but then that defeats their purpose. The messages he's taught us is the best he can do" is ABSOLUTELY illogical.
If we're struggling so much, and he loves us, he would help us, period. Or he is not loving, or not powerful enough to help. If the answer is right in front of us, then why does he intentionally HIDE from us? Just to make sure there are non-believers to roast in hell for not finding him? To offer to satan as sacrifice? To allow us to be punished, when it's his fault he makes it so difficult to figure out which god is even he real god, after we still have yet to determine that ANY gods are real? If and ancient book filled with inaccurate and dishonest accounts of history is the best he can do, again, he just must not be as powerful as he claims, or he just doesn't care enough about us to keep us from hell. That's HIS job, not ours. Until he starts doing his job (making sure forces much more powerful than ourselves are not able to harm us), he is clearly playing with us.

Because that's all it will ever sound like to someone who looks at the story for what it ACTUALLY SAYS rather than what OTHER PEOPLE have told you to BELIEVE it says. A jumbled story written by humans to scare other humans into obedience, using a non-present, scary god as collateral.
Showzilla Featured By Owner May 2, 2012
sorry about how that came out, getting off work, not thinking
TillShilohComes Featured By Owner Mar 16, 2012
Your theology is skewed by your ignorance.

Atheism is the religion of unbelief. It is even getting it's own Temples.
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner Mar 16, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Your theology is skewed by your blatant choice to be ignorant of atheism.
"Calling out christian bigotry and bullshit" is not a religion - that's just an activity i personally enjoy.
Atheism is as much a religion as "bald" is a hair colour. And those of us who share this single shared idea, "There are no reasons to believe in any gods" aren't all required to follow a book that tells us to kill homosexuals.
TillShilohComes Featured By Owner Mar 16, 2012
Then you show your "bigotry and bullshit" here, also your ignorance. Tell me something, you say there is no God, do you believe that?

Oh, it is the old '"bald' is a hair colour" thing, tell me something, don't you religious atheists get sick of your nonsensical 'mantra's'?Like I said, do you believe that? Jesus never told us to kill homosexuals, tell me where He says that?
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner Mar 16, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
All you've ever said in any of these comments are words from other people. Can you think of something unique? But no, your faith requires you not to persue further realms of thought.

Leviticus 20:13 - YOUR bible, within the laws of Moses handed down by YOUR god himself - says to kill homosexuals. And Jesus said himself that he came to fulfill the laws of Moses, and that failing to obey even a single letter of "god's laws" will make sure you are excluded from heaven.
On the other hand, there is NO atheist bible, and NONE of the books written on the subject of atheism, by any of the the well-known atheist writers, even suggest harming ANYONE. EVER!

Your move.

If you want to project christianity's bigotry and bullshit onto atheism, you're gonna need to do better than, "i'm rubber, you're glue" - which is all your argument amounts to.

And the reason i use the "bald as a hair colour" argument (which i acknowledge are words from other people, but when they ring true, they're worth repeating, like a person who calls not collecting stamps a hobby): if there's no hair, there's no way to colour it.
And just as atheism relates to religion: if we have NO magical beliefs, we can't have a religion around our lack of magical beliefs. We have understandings made from the actual facts in reality that CAN be proven and STILL CAN be, and HAVE been shown to us.
Yet NONE of the gods have ever shown up in modern times, their only traces being the words of humans, and some artwork/idols of the ancient humans. Most of the words left by most of the gods (including Yahweh and his demi-god Jesus) can be proven to be inaccurate, false, or outright dishonest.
One can only conclude that religions are all most likely human fabrications due to our innate cluelessness about ourselves and our universe, our wild imaginations, our willingness to believe in those we trust, and the selfish agendas of some we think we can trust.

Humans can weave rules around invisible imaginary beings to fool gullible people, like "he promised never to interfere again" or
"he gave us free will" or
"then he wouldn't have the opportunity to watch most of us be horribly tortured for the rest of eternity- i mean, then life would be boring, wouldn't it?"

None of those arguments will ever convince me, nor anyone who thinks for even 2 seconds about the whole thing.
TillShilohComes Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2012


Also, Jesus did say His coming would fulfill God's Word. He also made a New Covenant with us, Christians are not required to stone anyone! You are also forgetting the two commandments He gave us, the first two of the TEN. But HE will judge when the time comes, not us. The atheist 'Bible' is 'self'. Self worship, but they do not realize they follow another. It is indeed a religion, a religion of unbelief in God. As for what you say, rubbish, try the Communist manifesto for a start!

I am not playing a game.

Another atheistic mantra? And you say you guys don't have a 'Bible'. Bigot.

More mantra's. Christianity does not believe in magic. It believe's in God, and God does not use magic, in fact, he forbids the use of it. Maybe you are thinking of Wicca?Proof's of what? That 'bald is not a hair colour'?
Of course 'god's' have not shown up, 'god's' do not exist, only God exists, there is only One True God. OK, prove God's Word inaccurate, false and or downright dishonest. I am waiting. Because no one else has.

This statement describes atheism so well, and it is a religion.

True Christians have faith in God, not religion.

I said none of those quotes, do not attribute the words of others to me sir! But I do say this, God did give mankind free will.

Ok, it is not up to me to convince you, I am just the messenger. Only you can convince yourself of the truth of anything, by way of the reason and free will God gave you, how you use it, is up to you. But by the same God given reason, I and many, see His truth, reason it, and choose with our free will to accept His love and Grace, & His Lordship. Anyone who only thinks for 2 seconds about anything, let alone their eternal lives, is a fool.

Atheism is the 'religion of unbelief'.
ResponsibleAtheist Featured By Owner Jul 11, 2013
All you need to do to be an Atheist is not having belief in a god. You can have any opinion on any subject, but as long as you don´t believe in god, you´re an Atheist.

If the laws of the old testament no longer apply, does that also include the ten commandments? And if not, how can you be sure that the other old testament laws don´t apply anymore?

´´Christianity does not believe in magic´´

The Bible claims that witches must be put to death, the story of Moses involves the Egyptian priests performing miracles like turning their rods into snake, and so on. Clearly magic exists within the Bible´s continuity (which Christians accept as reality). And how exactly do you define magic? Magic is the use of paranormal methods to manipulate natural forces, which is what God contstantly does in the Bible.

´´prove God's Word inaccurate, false and or downright dishonest.´´

The creation story from Genesis has already been disproven by science, and there are countless reasons why the story of Noah´s Ark is fictional.
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner May 3, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Well, until you can tell me what kind of power god is running on, all we can conclude that it is magic, and we know magic doesn't exist.

As long as humans are the only beings who speak for gods (including yours, he is just one of the thousands of unproven gods, which you've still failed to show me, yet have the gall to defend), i will reserve my judgement. When any god comes down and shows itself to us, then i'll stop seeing christians as doing nothing but making excuses as to why their religion never seems to work, and why their god never seems to show up. Usually comes down to "Mysterious ways" and such magical garbage.

Faith in god, but not religion - you are implying that you've deleted the definition of "religion" from your brain so that you can distance yourself from something you know is flawed, faulty and false. You realize in order to believe in magical things, such as gods, you are thus believing in religion. You can't have a god that has a story to it and not call it part of a religion: the story IS the religion. To believe in a god and NOT have religion is to be a Deist, not believing in any christ or bible or religion, just the idea that something bigger than this universe created it and left it alone.

Religion is the STORY around a god, that is the definition of religion. And since real history shows about 80% of the bible's records to be false (the exodus, the flood, even jesus) it is only a story: fiction. As long as the story has been proven false, what else can you argue for, but making more excuses as to why your religion never seems to work, and why your specific god, out of thousands, never seems to show up.

Atheism is he rejection of god claims, period. We can only believe in a god when we are shown one.
Every single god that humanity has dreamed up has come short when it comes to actual real-world influence that didn't require humans to do it in his place.

Until a christian produces a god for everyone to see, or can produce repeatable results that prove believing in their religion makes us better people than believing in other religions, or none at all (when all the studies show the more religious a region is, the higher its crime-rates and teen-pregnancies) we have no reason to take anyone seriously who claims there is a god. Especially when they are trying to tell us how to run our lives based on ancient bigotries that go way beyond the simple rules that existed before man even created your god: don't kill, don't steal - something so basic even animal packs understand without needing a god to tell them, just evolved senses.

It is always the christian's job to convince us, because the christian is making the claim that needs to be proven. Until you can prove the findings of the entire universe wrong, and that instead an ancient book of ancient stories written by flawed organisms is right, i'll ignore any further defense of a god's existence.

Faith is lying to yourself.
TillShilohComes Featured By Owner May 3, 2012
Nothing since march 16, and now here you are?

Magic don't exist, so you conclude it is magic? Not very logical? Magic did not make the Universe & everything in it. God created the Universe and everything in it. That is not magic, that is the power of God. I do not doubt you cannot comprehend it because you limit yourself to things like 'magic'.

I don't have to defend God, God defends Himself, I will stand for God, I will speak His message. Up to you what you believe, your choice. God is coming, the day will come that He will be 'seen' the way you want Him to be seen.

You lack understanding. There is a difference between faith in God & 'religiosity'. Religion is of man, not God. The Roman Catholic Church practices over 25 heresies, or more. Other denominations have similar problems. this is 'religion', the practice of ritual, tradition made scripture is not of God. This is the very thing Jesus accused the Pharisee's and Sanhedrin of. The God of Abraham. is the One True God, He never told me to use Rosary beads and recite hail Mary's! If you do not understand, nor are able to understand this concept, not my problem.

Really? 80% false? This should be good, PROVE IT. Beyond shadow of doubt, prove it. Plucking figures out of your imagination is not very 'logical' of you. God is more than a story. "your religion never works", curious statement, if you mean Christianity, by what do you mean " never works"? As for God showing up (and you mention thousands?), God will indeed "show up"! The day is coming that you will meet Him personally, should be an interesting meeting.

Atheism is the 'religion of unbelief'.

Hahaha, Christians carry the message of God's Word, we don't have to prove anything. Produce God? You have to be kidding:), we don't dictate to God. Oh, I am telling YOU how to run YOUR life? How. Hahaha, good luck with those laws being in place before God decreed them.

No, it is not, the Commission is to spread the Word of God, whether anyone believes or not, is entirely up to them, by way of their God given free will. "the findings of the entire universe"? WOW, you have the findings of the entire Universe? Man! Why don't you share this great knowledge with everyone else? "the findings of the entire Universe"??? Well mate, tell you what, from one flawed human to another, I will ignore your hypocrisy. And by all means, feel free to stay ignorant, your choice.

Your delusion.
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner May 4, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
And believing in magical deities and figures (like your Yahweh and Christ) IS religion. Having faith or a relationship is just a fancy way to hide the fact that even YOU realize that religion is wrong and you have to distance yourself from a word that has come to be known more for oppression, bigotry, slavery and murder, than "spiritual enlightenment".

(Spirituality = Magical thinking - you gotta believe in unnatural powers, and unnatural powers are equivalent to magic, no matter how much you want to think it doesn't - because even you realize magic is a silly word no one can take seriously, so you try to distance yourself from it to not sound like a child arguing in the dark)
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LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner May 4, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Dealing with mind pollution can only be taken in small doses, comments pass by, and get forgotten. But i also realized you'd do just this - not answer any of my points by saying you don't need to. Hey, you're the one trying to convince me of something that isn't there, buddy. YOU have to produce a god you are advertising, or else your god is just as fake as every other god that man has dreamed up. And your god was invented when man was already several thousand years into civilization, he wasn't even the first god man ever invented, so that's proof enough.
Real history will always trump religious history.

And in order to believe in god is to believe in his power, and his power, until shown to make any effect in this universe, can only be equated to magic, because he is an unexplained being that uses powers beyond what is natural. That is MAGIC DEFINED, moron. Stop being intentionally stupid and read reality for what it is. Stop blinding yourself with the pages of an ancient book that has been proven false just by claiming a child was born of a virgin, or that mankind started with 2 humans rather than evolved through generations from simpler organisms. Just those statements alone prove your god is fake, because he should have known that shit and put it in your obsolete book.

God has never defended himself, he requires YOU to do it because he doesn't exist. Period. And until you can produce your god STOP SPREADING HIS LIES!
YOU are making the claim that something is there when it shows NO INDICATION OF EXISTING beyond human excuses as to why he doesn't ever seem to show up or that it's your specific god out of the thousands we've invented.

Don't respond until you can bring your god with you to your conversation, make a youtube video where god is sitting next to you so he can also defend the horribly humanly inconsistent stories that you are desperately trying to make seem real.

Anything less than that and i can only conclude that you're a liar by intent. You choose to lie and then avoid addressing it when these things are pointed out to you.

Stop lying that you know something and actually show it. Until then you have NOTHING to argue.
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psyco-chick28 Featured By Owner Mar 14, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Agreed. I was raised Catholic, and the church has done a lot of terrible things, that they like pretend never happened, or they weren't that involved. Point out, that they pretty much permitted slavery to happen, and forced people to convert, and they ignore you. Point out the Church's inherent misogyny, and get all defensive and upset. "By denying women the priesthood and denying the reproductive right, your making them second class citizens." A hard core Catholic answer is. "No because they're women and Jesus wasn't a woman, and they're made to make babies, and getting in the way of that is sin." uggh denial at it's worse.

Most of them don't want to think about the terrible things that are part of their religion because it goes against what they were told as a child, and it makes them uncomfortable. Cognitive dissonance, pretty much.
Fuiron Featured By Owner Mar 9, 2012
*shrugs* I like to think that for the most part, a belief in ANY specific deity is acceptable because humans are incredibly flawed creatures, and would perceive a particular action as perfect based on our own limited views, and then attach some meaning to that action based on our ideas about what is harmful and beneficial. For example, God made the Universe, therefore, God is all-powerful, from the prespective of someone in the Universe. However, we humans routinely create things that we cannot control, or create things that while we CAN control, we choose not to, for the most part. Not to mention, we humans are famous for making something, and then essentially abandoning it. Any one of those can be an option for a creator deity. Our understanding of the stuff OUTSIDE our world is pretty much ZERO--who KNOWS what our ancestors saw, if they were even being honest. For all I know, the first of my ancestors to write anything down, as far as the Old Testament goes, was trying for that century's version of the Bestseller List, but people took 'im seriously.

PS: That means NO deity is totally illogical. Only people can be illogical.
LimeGreenSquid Featured By Owner Mar 10, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
You still haven't argued why that would be logical.
Fuiron Featured By Owner Mar 10, 2012
Hmm...Is "alogical" a word? I literally cannot imagine thinking of God as anything other than some undefinable, impossible to identify blob, as far as what we actually know. When there's nothing to go on, a thing is simply outside my ability to consider-- So, I choose not to. It is a waste of energy trying to prove OR disprove something of which we know nothing. To put it bluntly, there cannot be a good discussion of God without defining said entity (needless to say, most definitions of the Supreme Being lack...focus enough for me to consider what would prove or cast doubt upon their existence).

If I were to imagine a white-haired, angry fellow sitting on a cloud, fingering a lightning bolt, I would go about testing his existence somewhat differently than the Principle of All Things, which lacks a body and is probably no more intelligent, as we would consider such things, than gravity...
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