Religion: It's all about Preferences...If religious people understood that their beliefs are Preferences, and not divine missions from one of the thousands of gods out there that for some reason they think is real when all the others aren't, a lot of strife will be avoided.
If people realize their own beliefs, and the beliefs of others, are all just preferences (instead of projecting onto things that can NOT be chosen, things you can't honestly just change your mind about, as being "preferences" - aka homosexuality), ideas that you Prefer to cling to, not something born into you (we are all born atheist, after all) along with eliminating the rule in each of them that states "our spiritual preference, out of thousands, is the only true spiritual preference. All others, given the exact same circumstantial 'evidence' as ours, and sounding just as ridiculous as ours are wrong, because we say so, and we don't need to explain ourselves because we have faith (ie, we don't prefer to think about things, but demand bizarre things to be true if we feel like it, without needing to have any valid way of backing up our truth-claims)" will seriously work towards ending religious warring - the biggest cause of death in the entirety of human history - outnumbering the top 3 fatal illnesses combined.
But no, too many religions are built upon that one "holy" rule - which in one fell swoop should indicate corruption of that religion - where belief is more important than the spiritual connection to the universe, more important than the love and welfare of other people (especially those who don't share the same preference, or opinion) and animals, even to the point of restricting potentially life-saving research just because it doesn't jive with their superstitions, as well as restricting people who love each other from choosing a life-bond because again, it doesn't jive with their superstitions.
Their PREFERENCE to believe in superstitions.
If they prefer to believe in society-retarding superstitions, those that encourage bigotry and discrimination based on superstition, let them - as long as they don't demand everyone else believe in them, and as long as they don't act on them - because discrimination without valid cause is bad for EVERYONE. (I will not discriminate against a homosexual, because they are just looking for love - their parts may not have evolved to work together, but there are so many genetic differences, it would be ridiculous to discriminate if they aren't hurting anyone - but i WILL viciously discriminate against child-molesters because, even though maybe they were born with a different attraction like homosexuals have been, they ARE hurting people).
But then there are some that think it's their duty to spread these cancerous superstitions, and don't accept the idea that people may prefer not to adhere to them, and so they make up some bullshit to justify their brand of discrimination, such as their preferred devils supposedly making people do things to turn away from their preferred god. You start believing in that shit, you can just about justify anything - and that's a scary thought, and though it may start out as a mental illness within a certain person, it is always backed up by some passage in one of the many horrifying holy books!
And yet Atheists are the ones least trusted in north america ... I mean come on!
Ever notice how many lies and deception are used by religious people trying to argue their case (forging prophetic documents after the fact, encouraging ignorance to unbiased, factual, scientific study, claiming faith in something that they've never seen - hey, you know, faith is a form of lying, if you think about it), while atheists go out of their way to use absolute honesty and facts to argue theirs, also honestly stating when they don't know something?
Of course i can't deny some rogue atheists who may try to falsify information - but the difference is that atheists don't HAVE to, since religion is its own worst enemy.
Anything that requires your mind to do loops and acrobatics to avoid a fact, or dance around it, twisting words around it to make you ignore it, in order to believe the thing is just not worth the effort to think about.
Things that are out there, and can be studied and tested and don't require colourful language to hide the flaws in the argument are much more worth our time thinking about!
In fact, scientific study demands full, honest disclosure of any flaws in the argument so that they can be scrutinized and analyzed and changed or removed if all the tests prove it wrong - at least the scientific study that doesn't rely on capitalism to survive, like "beauty" products and "diet" products. But what money to evolutionary scientists make? Maybe a couple dozen out of hundreds or thousands of them have written a book here and there - but that's hardly an agenda-driven pursuit.
What amount of fully disclosed flawed arguments do religious people willingly give out to be challenged, changed or removed when proven wrong?
"Believe in our preferred spiritual opinion, or go to our preferred version of hell. Our word is flawless, (even though that word comes from a book that contradicts itself on every message it has an opinion on - but we don't ever admit that!)"
That's it? That's all they'll give us?
Atheists can read word-for-word bible passages to religious people more often and more thoroughly than the vice versa. We will give them the straightforward bigoted, sexist, homophobic, slavery-encouraging, mind-policing bible passages that showcase how much of a brutal, evil tyrant their god really is, and they'll STILL say atheists haven't read the bible.
An obvious clue to the fact that those particular religious people haven't read it.
Or if they have, they ignore the parts they don't like - so why bother have a bible if they ignore all the parts they don't like, the parts that don't justify their agendas (many christians will say the old testament is obsolete, jesus changed all the rules, but will still pull out the Adam and Eve story, as well as the infamous Leviticus 20:13 - condemning homosexuality and ordering homosexuals to be put to death - to push their bigoted agendas by using features specifically from the "obsolete" Old Testament)?
Again, it comes down to preferences. They prefer the happy, peaceful loving verses when they want to swell their flock, but use the discriminatory, or superstitious verses when they want to hinder human relationships they don't prefer, or scientific research they prefer to be superstitious about.
Prefer your own gods or rules - just understand they are YOUR PREFERENCES, and no one else is required to have them!
My preference is toward atheism, as it's the only option that makes any sense. I don't have to stretch my verbal or mental acrobatics to justify anything about it. I don't have to ignore facts, or evidence, i don't have to ignore the natural processes of the observable universe to come to my decision.
How many religious people can say that?
When a religion comes around that is completely open to scrutiny, actively encourages debate, doesn't rely on inventing ideas in people's heads as answers to big questions - "You never knew the answers to any of my questions, did you? You made up all the answers to my unimportant existence." Pantera, "25 Years" - doesn't rely on falsifying evidence (the shroud of Turin dates to the 15th or 16th century, not the first, and christian historians admit the christian tampering of one of the four "eyewitness" accounts of jesus [big number for a world-changing messiah]), or discrediting respectable, overwhelmingly factual and accurate scientific facts and theories with ridiculous, impossible, or overwhelmingly unlikely speculations (ie, the devil putting dinosaur bones in the earth to test our faith in the bible's 6000 year old earth story - anyone who doesn't laugh at the ridiculousness of that idea should be turned immediately in the direction of the nearest mental assylum - it's the epitome of pulling something out of your ass, next to the whole "god gave us free will" and "mysterious ways" silliness), if the religion doesn't rely on any of the above, then i might take preferential interest in it, beyond just my general interest in mythology.
But since none of the religions of this world have ever delivered on any of those terms (well, some of the pagan ones may not have relied on deception as much), i will still prefer atheism.
Anything that relies on lies to further its influence, and demands unquestioning faith needs to be questioned and have its historical record brought to light as soon as possible.
What would you really prefer?
Devious Comments
However, I feel that (most) Wiccans don't act like you've described religious people to act. At least I don't, and the other Wiccans I know don't. Our faith encourages us to question, makes no claims that its the ONLY possible correct answer, allows each person to interpret the divine for themselves, and is not based on a hierarchy or one definitive text. I'm also sure that there are many Buddhists, Taoists, etc. that consider themselves religious and don't act like you've described.
So please don't condemn all religious people just because lots of members of the "mainstream" religions act insane and bigoted
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#Gnome-Home
Though i understand there are fundamentalists in all religions, the triple-headed demon (christanity, judaism, and islam) are the only ones i've found that actively encourage fundamentalism in their source-books.
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"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house!" - George Carlin
My BBW Pin-Up Art!
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#Gnome-Home
Religion isn't a new thing to the human race. Anthropological evidence indicates that cultures and races around the world have been involved with forms of religion for thousands of years, perhaps even millions. (Not going to look up the actual facts, way too damned lazy.) To be fair, with your theory of evolution, religion has also evolved. True, in some areas of the world--Europe being one of them--religion is fading into the background.
But the fact of the matter is, complaining about how oppressed the atheists are because they don't believe in a deity or higher form of existence seems pointless and never-ending. Atheism cannot exist with other religions. Who would give a damn that you believed in nothing if no one else had a conflicting thought? And where would be the interest or the variety in that?
I will say that religions of the modern day need to 'upgrade,' by promoting tolerance for new cultures and ways of life. There's nothing wrong with living one's life based upon principles of love, faith, fellowship, and charity. We need to be able to extend this beyond what the Bible--or the Koran (sp?), or any other spiritual guidance material--set up for those who were practicing the religion at the time.
Arguing against something that is, in some countries, an openly-protected right of the people, is the personal right of all atheists. If they'd only do what they keep whining they want religious believers to do, and just STFU, sit down, and GBTW. This is what everyone should do, because right now, there are so many other issues in the world that need to be addressed, other than the bitching and whining of groups of people who don't agree.
Let's fix the economy first, and get some people governing our countries who aren't corrupt and moronic. An impossible task? Absolutely. Doesn't mean we shouldn't still strive for it. (And yes, that applies to the atheist's argument too. Hoorah for all of you.)
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"If something seems too good to be true, best to shoot it, just in case."
Two people can look at the exact same sunset, at the exact same time, standing side by side, and see two vastly difference things. One can be amazed by the vibrant red, while the other could totally miss that and be captivated by the silhouette of the trees. Your an atheist ok that is great, that is fine, you have a very strong belief and I respect the fact that you are so strong in that stance.
You see things differently than me much like many of my friends, that is pretty normal in this world. I have never ever attacked anyone who believes differently than I do, I don't find anything wrong with agreeing to disagree but still treating others with respect and being respected in return. I am truly sorry that there are people out there who give my beliefs a bad name, and who do horrible things in the name of God, that isn't cool and I work hard to go against that. The same way that you can look at all people in religions and just not be able to comprehend how they could ever come to that kind of conclusion is pretty much the same feeling they have when thinking about atheism, to them it just doesn't make any sense. They are very wrong if they take that frustration and treat you badly because of it, that isn't cool in any way shape or form from any side of the fence. So please forgive me if this all just seems kind of hypocritical to me, by stating that every other belief is simply a preference but then holding up your belief as the be all and end all, and the only true way to think. Though I can understand it because I know to you it is, you wouldn't be a very good believer if you said.. yeah what I believe and stake my life on might not be true, whatever who cares, but in that line of thinking, I would be pretty weak and flimsy if I treated my beliefs , what I stake my life on, in that type of manner that you ask me too.
:idevQuadrophenicYouth: said it best I think when he stated this "however, "I believe there is no God" is a belief itself. And one which need not be granted any special permissions, much less the same special permissions you argue so well that no other belief should be given."
I don't expect you to change your beliefs, nor do I want to save you, and I wouldn't ask you to never talk about what you believe. I simply want to be treated with respect and allowed to make my own decision on the matter just as I would do for anyone else, and not have to fear if I talk about something that makes me me.
I love your art nick, your little corner of this DA site was the very first time I had ever been able to see myself as beautiful, acceptable, and worth something even though I am a fat lady. It was the very first time I had ever even heard that i could actually accept myself and not have to live in shame for the size and shape of my body. Sadly it was also the very first time I felt attacked, hated, reviled and despised for who I am and the belief that shapes who I am as a person, the belief that challenges me daily to be a better person to others. The tears I have shed and the hurt I have felt over the countless journals, artist descriptions, and artworks from this little corner, that have out rightly bashed my beliefs and torn apart who I am because of them, comparing me to monsters and all sorts of evil when I work so hard to treat people with care, respect, and kindness has taken away all that treasure that I found and that breaks my heart.
I think your a good guy, an incredible artist, and I am glad you have found something that makes sense to you, that is cool, I am sorry that that makes you hate me.
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"I support the radically simple idea that people should not be discriminated against, made fun of, restricted, or oppressed because of the size and shape of their bodies."
BEAUTY HAS NO BOUNDARIES!
I agree, it's sort of a belief that i think there's no god, i don't know for 100% fact, just like i don't believe dragons and leprechauns actually exist (none of them have left any fossil evidence, or evidence of any kind, beyond hearsay - gods, dragons and leprechauns alike - so it's impossible to say with 100% that they don't or haven't ever existed ... but the likelihood ...) but my point is that if people stopped just believing the things they were told by people who also don't know any more than anyone else, (plus most of them refuse to look at reality when it proves something they believe to be wrong), there would be a lot less strife.
The facts about the origins of religions and the selfish agendas for which they were forged must always be brought to light, to inform believers what exactly they are believing in, so that they can take a step back and at least check themselves (like i believe you do) so that they don't take their preference and force it on everyone who doesn't favour that preference.
But here's another fact: Science applies to ALL humans, it is the only universal connection between all people no matter what colour, belief, sexual preference, etc., (ie, a christian doesn't fall down while a jew falls to the left, and a muslim falls to a 45 degree slant, and buddhists fall upwards towards the sky - gravity, like evolution, and the big bang are all provable facts that everyone is a part of, whether they believe it or not, and they're not just unverifiable "beliefs" - they are tried, tested and true facts, supported by mountains of evidence - but if you choose not to believe in gravity, well you're going to REALLY need to be tolerant towards ridicule) because we just can't work beyond the boundaries of the fraction of the physical universe that our evolved brains and our new technology are tuned into being a part of.
Religion doesn't apply to all people, because no one can verify whether theirs is true over another's, and are basically just telling ancient stories that conflict with other ancient stories, often without any historical evidence to back them up.
One of them could be right, who knows, but that's exactly it - no one knows, and even supporting these religions, whether you're a kind gentle sort who does their best to do good for the world (which is something inside YOU, not a book that demonstrates bigotry, violence, and genocide a lot more often than its peaceful loving laws that it plagiarized from ancestor religions in the area - again, just facts, if facts offend you or hurt you, then you are truly lost - if listening to facts makes you feel like you're being attacked, hated, reviled or despised ... this is the exact stigma that atheists are so frustrated by - we get blamed and called attackers just for trying to bring people back to deal with the reality now as it is, not as it was 6000 years ago) is detrimental to society, because even the kind believers implicitly support the machine used by the selfish fundamentalists (even if they personally don't) who want nothing more than to spread the idea that their preference is the correct one to people who think THEIR OWN preference is the correct one - and this is what causes these wars.
"We live better than you, so you gotta be like us!"
"We don't want to be like you, we like being us, and you should, too!"
"But our god says our way is best!"
"But OURS says OURS is!" And so forth.
Don't you think it's a worthy cause to eliminate that kind of strife altogether?
To get religion OUT of politics, OUT of a public "do this or be ostracized" mentality? Put it back into a personal, individual, spiritual path-seeking, rather than a slavery-oriented, club membership with people who proclaim 100% knowledge about something nobody in this world can know?
The atheist wants people to forget about these ancient stories, mostly not rooted in any facts, and stop fighting about them, and just deal with the world as it is.
In the world as it is today, it's more important than ever for people to stop dealing with gods, and take earth, humanity, and all living creatures on this earth as their project to worship and save and spend money on, to work towards world peace and the welfare of all humans, no matter what they believe in, and not just "peace for those who believe in my preferences, and the restriction of peace UNTIL they are made to believe what we do." (Missionary work really disgusts me - the people they victimize had their own spiritual preferences which they should be allowed to maintain, and the only reason they are starving and suffering is BECAUSE missionaries went over there, trying to "Whiten" the area in the first place)
Now, more than ever, religion is the most important thing for the world to overcome, as it's one of the biggest things holding peaceful progress back, while vaulting violent, careless progress forward at frightening speeds.
Have your beliefs - if you believe in something that sounds ridiculous when you speak it out loud, be accepting of ridicule, and don't be defensive, because even you (or religious people in general) admit they only believe on faith (which is a form of lying), and you understand you have no evidence to support your belief.
So you kinda have to be like, "Yah, i know it sounds crazy, i can see that, but i like it best out of the things i've heard, so i'll stick to it." That is a MUCH more respectable position than being offended or feeling attacked just because someone brings to light the facts.
Accept criticism and ridicule from time to time, the hurt feelings card doesn't work because you KNOW your beliefs stand on nothing. Feel free to have those beliefs, but just know the price of having them.
I can't prove them wrong, just like i can't prove Santa Claus, and the Tooth Faery don't exist - but you have to understand this is the level your belief remains on.
Again, it's not an attack, but a fact until proven otherwise.
If you're fine with that, and still want to believe, then that's what you believe - if you don't use it to discriminate against others, if you don't use it to distrust others who don't believe in your beliefs, if you ignore over half of the book your faith demands you to believe in, and only focus on the positive messages - then i respect you, and i have no qualms with you. But i do demand that you look at the world, at yourself, and at your beliefs and see them for what they are, understand that you are only holding part of the holy bible to be true, so that a little ridicule will roll off your back, since not everyone shares those beliefs or any beliefs at all for some.
And also, if your beliefs don't stand against the facts, know that your beliefs will be dissected by those who stick to the facts - because the facts are all we actually have that we can deal with in the universe and our lives that we have evolved to create, and affect ALL people, not just those who choose to believe in them.
Like the old saying, The hand that helps is far more useful than the hand that prays.
Help people in reality, have your beliefs that cannot be backed up any more than anyone else's beliefs - just understand that that's exactly what they are.
It's not me that's being an attacker, and i'm sorry if you feel that way. If bringing the physical facts of the universe that do not correspond with your beliefs into the light of conversation is seen as an attack, then this attack is only in the believer's head. If it feels like an attack, then perhaps you should examine why you believe in what you believe, and not be so concerned about who said what that hurt you. Because if a religion creates its fanbase by structuring it so that any facts that refute the beliefs are seen as malicious, then that is truly a brainwashed state. All new facts should be taken as they are, because everyone in the world can prove these facts under their own research - something no religion can offer with better than a 1 out of 33,000 chance of success.
That is all an atheist asks: Examine what you believe in, expect ridicule and take it in stride if what you believe sounds unrealistic, and just treat each human as a clean-slate chalkboard, and use their personality, and NOT what they believe in to determine how you feel about and treat them.
If that message sounds like an attack to you, then i guess there's nothing more i can say.
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"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house!" - George Carlin
My BBW Pin-Up Art!
mmmkay nick.. you are right
carry on trying to save all of the brainwashed people from their stupidity
I am sure you will manage to convince them all that they are wrong and your's is the only right way, that will feel great I am sure.
Take care then
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"I support the radically simple idea that people should not be discriminated against, made fun of, restricted, or oppressed because of the size and shape of their bodies."
BEAUTY HAS NO BOUNDARIES!
I'm sorry you had to resort to being passively aggressive about something just factual and logical.
I've always valued your opinion and criticism on my artwork.
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"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house!" - George Carlin
My BBW Pin-Up Art!
Your a good guy Nick, and I just shouldn't have even opened my mouth lol. THAT was my bad hee hee.
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"I support the radically simple idea that people should not be discriminated against, made fun of, restricted, or oppressed because of the size and shape of their bodies."
BEAUTY HAS NO BOUNDARIES!
And i know this is a slanted comment. There was a comment above saying that you claim that atheism is the only proven religion, making this a slanted argument. which is the very essence of debate!
I, would like to know how exactly this is proven. (or anything, for that matter)
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